200 Standart Wild - "Immobilizing bears"

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hblasto
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200 Standart Wild - "Immobilizing bears"


Once, while sitting at home and looking at the blizzard outside the window, I thought of bears. I have duos, with an interesting ability, so why not to abuse them.

The main idea is this will enable the bears to bite the immobilized creatures of the opponent, because everyone knows that bears bit on fixed targets are very painful.

The first thing that came to mind was the Stormrage Shambler:


Stormrage Shambler (72)
Dire Bear Mauler (45)
Dire Bear Mauler (45)
And somthing for 38 points, for example: Mummy, Dunestalker (38)

All the hope was that we were the first to break the opponent's titan's FORT, but +18 this keep us little chance.

On the second variant I stumbled, looking at the warband builder:


Rashemi Witch (43)
Small White Dragon (24)
Small White Dragon (24)
Dire Bear Mauler (45)
Dire Bear Mauler (45)
There are (19) points left, I have not figured out yet how best to spend them in this concept.

Witch slows any, it does not matter whether you hit it or not. Any who is slowed down becomes immobilized by Dragon. Bears beats.

I have little experience with competitive warband, I would like to hear the advice of the players, is there any potential for this build.

skyscraper
skyscraper's picture

Hi hblasto, nice combo there!

What format are you playing in? I assume by "200 standard" you mean 200-8. I would suggest that you find those 3 other additional creatures to fill the warband, because it's easier to judge a warband when it's complete.

On the combo you're planning to play, it has cool potential and the different effects not requiring a hit to slow-immobilize-deal 40 auto-damage to immoblized would probably make an interesting warband to play.

One thing to consider, is that combos that require a first creature to attack to slow, then a second to be within 3 squares to change slow to Immobilized, then a third to attack to Immobilize, means that all those creatures need to be available and nearby the target. Often, one of those will be affected by a condition, killed, blocked from reaching the target opponent, or simply too far away. It's not impossible to pull off mind you; just that cascading effects mean that if one domino is missing, the last tile won't fall where it should.

I've recently played against a Dire Bear Mauler / Stormrage Shambler combo in a 200-5 game. I thought I would be in for a beating, but I ended up winning. The Dire Bear Mauler was taken down too quickly, and a lot relies on it. Once he's out, that threatening 40 auto-damage disappears, and the other creatures are much less of a threat. I.e. that warband relied on one creature to do a lot of damage; the synergy with the other creatures all pointed to it. The other creatures have little synergy between themselves in terms of damage or effects.

One other point that made it difficult, is that the Bear and Shambler are size large and speed 6, i.e. pretty slow. If I recall correctly, on the half-maps that we played on, neither was able to attack on round 2, while most of my creatures did.

That said, that was just one game. If I were you, I'd play the warband you're planning to build and see how it fares in practice. You have two Dire Bear Maulers, two dragons and the witch slows from a distance, so this helps. If you can manage to get 80 damage done to a key creature with the two bears, you'll certainly be in a good position. It certainly sounds like a fun warband Smile

I'd consider using some of the remaining points you have on an effect-removing creature or item (e.g. Healer), because melee combatants such as the Dire Bear Mauler are fragile to conditions, especially with low REF and WILL. Immobilized usually targets WILL, and it is a relatively frequent condition.

hblasto
hblasto's picture

Should I play warband in exactly 8 miniatures by 200 points Assault, or I can use figures less than 8? In the rules of 2011, I did not find that I needed exactly 8 miniatures. Are you currently using other warband builing rules?

The second dragon may be replaced by Alissa, Human Ranger or another WILL shooter with Immobilize.

Now I already understand that this is a fan build, but if you enter the unprepared matageme at the right time, you can hope for success. If the warband builder is not lying, only 4 creatures with immune immobilized. The most problematic i think are:

Kolyarut

Gorgon

skyscraper
skyscraper's picture

You can build with less than 8 creatures in a 200-8 Assault. 200 points and 8 creatures are the upper thresholds, but you can have less of either, e.g. 5, 6 or 7 creatures, or 198 or 199 points.

That said, optimizing the number of creatures is generally seen as an advantage. It is not a do or die condition, i.e. some warbands fare OK with less than 8 creatures. But for each creature less than 8 you have, it's a slight disadvantage.

The reasons according to my experience and understanding are:

a) activation control: I think this is the most important. With more creatures, you can wait for the opponent to move his creatures, before you move yours. For example, if I played against your warband and I had 8 creatures and you, only 5, on round 1 I could move my lower cost creatures first and end with my important units and move them in a direction away from your Bears afer your bears have moved (or, move the creatures I want towards your bears); and on the engagement round I could wait until your bears are force to act, and after that I could move my own creatures to attack them, and some of them could possibly then act again before your bears on the following round, which means that I could have 4-5 activations against your bears before they can even have a single attack, perhaps killing at least one bear.

b) with 8 creatures, I have fodder that I can use to slow down your Bears and Shambler, sending them in melee against your big guys and preventing them from moving forward, while my important creatures remain away. This tactic is called "egging", i.e. you send an egg (foddder) to the important creature to take the hit and slow him down, while your important creatures remain unthreatened. This works really well.

c) with 8 creatures I probably have more total HPs in my warband, even if the total point value is the same. Plus, taking out, say, a 45-point creature will still take 3 attacks from a 20 damage dealing enemy. So it will take more activations and attacks to take out my warband than if I had fewer creatures, for an equal point value. (Of course, they might have lower defenses, etc.. etc.. so this point is limited somewhat.)

d) More creatures means more flanking and positional advantage opportunities.

Other officially supported game formats include Arena that is 200-5, which is also a cool format to play. Your combo is probably better suited for that format IMO, but you can see how it does in either.

Personally, my friends and I also play some 300-8, 400-8 and 400-10. We like those too Smile 500 points is also cool (either with 5, 8 or 10 creatures)!

Ira
Ira's picture

Here's how I might approach it:

If you want to capitalize on the Immobilized condition with Dire Bear Mauler, let's say you want 2 of them. That's 90 points.

You have 110 points left, and want to have 6 creatures to maximize your activations, as Skyscraper noted. I searched for creatures in the Wild faction with the Immobilized condition from their attacks. Here are some ideas:

Skullreaver Wight, 40 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/files/creatures/SKT.pdf) Minor action to Immobilize. Could include 2, and then fill out remaining 30 points with 4 creatures.

Yuan-Ti Learned One, 46 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/files/creatures/SKT.pdf) Basic attack to Immobilize Large or Smaller targets. Also has champion 3 which is good for initiative control, and could include 2 of these, then fill out remaining 18 points with 4 creatures. Also has an ability that does extra damage to Immobilized, so if the Bear immobilizes with Rend, this creature can benefit too.

Thri-Kreen Protector, 33 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/files/creatures/SKT.pdf) Similar to Yuan-Ti Learned One, but cheaper and no initiative control. But also works against Huge creatures, and gets a double attack at reach 2 to Immobilize, and another power that triggers based on Immobilized. You could even include 3 of these and then fill out the remaining 3 activations with 11 points.

White Wyrmling, 15 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/files/creatures/Monster%20Menagerie%202.pdf) Maybe this champion effect is an easier way to get Immobilized? You need to do cold damage...

Worg Leader, 35 points: (http://irafay.com/DDM/files/creatures/Monster%20Menagerie%202.pdf) Single immobilization effect. Maybe worth considering.

Dire Wolf, 16 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view/909). Gives Immobilized if you have multiple wolves. Probably not worth it, but you could consider something like 4x of these.

Celestial Giant Stag Beetle, 26 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view/634) This thing is really slow and also large, but it has good stats for only 26 points. It doesn't really fill the other needs of your warband, so I'd probably skip it, but it's definitely a creature I think has potential.

Harpy, 15 points (http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view/133) The classic Immobilizer at long range with Alluring Song.

Of all the choices, I'd probably go with 3x Thri-Kreen Protector. So you have:
2x Dire Bear Mauler (45 points each)
3x Thri-Kreen Protector (33 points each)
and then 11 more points for 3 more creatures

You don't have any ranged attack powers there, so I might pick creatures like Kenku Sneak or other weak ranged attack creatures.

I hope this helps! This was fun to think about. Smile

hblasto
hblasto's picture

I forgot to tell you, it's historically happened that I play for good (or neutral), and my friend for the bad ones) Some role play.

In a natural habitat my miniatures will fight these guys, this is my friend's warband:

Nightwalker Sinister
http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/1199
Thaskor
http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/376
Bodak Skulk
http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/1179
Shadowhunter Bat
http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/930?guild=true

It is seen that the last thing I'd like to do with these guys, then beat them by AC)

That's why I do not want to use evil characters, I believe that this band can be killed by good ones)

I liked the idea of cheap creatures, which allow the main group to skip moves and zoning opponent creatures. I decided to choose from what I have.

Small White Dragon x1,
Rashemi Witch x1,
Dire Bear Mauler x2,
Black Woods Dryad x2, http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/826
Stirge Drone x1, http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/1053?guild=true
Elf Archer x1, http://irafay.com/DDM/creatures/view_card/878?guild=true

I believe that two small dryads will win me a couple of moves

skyscraper
skyscraper's picture

Those are also cool ideas Ira and hblasto!

The new Three-Kreens are really nice figures IMO. You suggest the protector since it immobilizes, but the hunter would be a fine addition too with its ranged attack (see below) and keying off Immobilized for additional damage. I'd probably include one instead of the three protectors.

In the warband that was played agaisnt me, my opponent used the Warden of the Wood that has a CP that deals extra damage to creatures bloodied by beast or plant allies, and it has some interesting ranged threat; and it is a champion Smile because presently this warband has none in any iteration. It is arguably expensive however at 46 points because it is a bit weak in HP and defenses.

The Howling Hag is not uninteresting because it attacks at range, and it can deal extra damage to creatures that are immobilized (incidentally). This is a techy piece, but with good potential for its cost.

The new Gnoll Fighter is a cool unit also. I admit to not having tried it yet, but I really look forward to it, lol Smile It is a Champion also, and you can protect it if you have a beast fodder.

Vadania is an interesting low-cost champion that provides interesting buffs to beasts, if you're looking to build around a pair of Dire Bear Maulers she raises their defenses significantly, an interesting buff for these pieces that are going to be targetted heavily as front-liners.

Dire bear mauler x 2 = 90
Harpy 15
Warden of the Wood 46
Vadania 22
Wild Elf Warsinger 9
Hunting Cougar x2

What I like about the cougars is that they usually get too much attention for their cost, because of their mobility and potential 40 damage with the warsinger.

Or (just to gain extra damage against your 3-protector warband Ira ;-P ):

Gnoll Fighter 47
Dire bear mauler 45
Thri Kreen Hunter 33
Thri Kreen Protector 33
Howling Hag 22
Healer 12
Kenky Sneak 6
Wolf 5

Or:

Dire Bear Mauler 45
Lillend 44
Goliath Cleric of Khavaki 36
Visejaw Crocodile 24
Snaketongue Cultist 17 (works well with visejaw croc)
Shadarkai Witch 26 (ever a good addition to any warband IMO)
Kenku Sneak 6
Human Thug w/Cursed Rot Scarab 2

The above are far from highly competive, and arguably weaker than either hblasto's or Ira's warbands, I'm just throwing a couple of ideas out there for fun Smile and to get some additional creature names on the table. My warbands lack some focus and some have too much tech.

Another creature that is fun and that works both off and with Immobilized is the Khumat (higher defenses than the dire bear mauler).

skyscraper
skyscraper's picture

Just noticed that you're looking for a good warband only hablasto. So some of my ideas are not applicable.

Matob Matobsen
Matob Matobsen's picture

Hi,

spent some time with several tries to make competitive warband.
I was not limited with good faction.. so Harpy for 15 points seems to be really great idea.

Other minis I used was Thorn (great if forest terrain, but not so usefull for the rest..)and maybe Rot Scarab Swarm or Earth Archon Rumbler (not sure if Imobilized is part of Stunned efect..)

Well, in the end we had lot of fun but never really won - but main reason were my poor dice rolls.

So wishing you good luck!

hblasto
hblasto's picture

Take look to my version of the warband excludes any "bad" rolls, since we always hits, our main task is to use the terrain cover, find the right position and right activation sequence.
The main problem is the survival of the core minis. You need cannon fodder to absorb damage, while bears need to do "oneshot" kill. At some point the Witch can begin to protect the Bears with the her Runescarred Protector ability. Standing across the tonel or cave and not letting the enemies go further.

Matob Matobsen
Matob Matobsen's picture

How bout Shadar-kai Witch?

hblasto
hblasto's picture

A Shadar-Kai Witch is a good, but in my concept of unconditional damage can not be added. By the way, the first witch forbids being the second witch (Arcane creature) is in same band)